If one does not agree with the sectarian prayers at the senior center, he is asked to leave.
From:
constitution supporter
Saturday, October 27, 2007
Prayer at Senior Center
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62 comments:
I for one think its wrong about this prayer. I sat next to an elderly Jewish woman as the prayer was said in Jesus Christ's name. That made me uncomfortable to see that.
I have heard that the County Commissioners have decided not to ask Sharon Carter the director to stop it. So the action item would to be to contact the commissioners and Sharon.
It appears that contacting the Center's Advisory Board members would be the best idea. From The Enterprise:
Will meal prayer be banned?
"Date Published to Web: 10/24/2007
Klickitat County Commissioners declined earlier this month to issue a formal policy on whether volunteers serving seniors meals could lead them in prayer.
Instead, the commissioners referred the question to Senior Services Advisory Board members who are expected to discuss the topic in their monthly meeting.
The issue came up Oct. 2, when Senior Service Director Sharon Carter told the county commissioners that someone had complained about the practice of holding a prayer at the senior meal sites at the beginning of the meal, as well as reciting the Pledge of Allegiance.
Prosecuting Attorney Tim O'Neill advised that there is no consistency in the law, and in his opinion, a prayer or moment of silence should not be mandated or sanctioned by the county.
He noted attendees could voluntarily have a moment of silence or pray on their own.
The commissioners did agree that no county staff member should solicit or lead prayer during any of four senior meals served in the county.
The only senior meal site in a county building is the Pioneer Center in White Salmon."
Does anyone remember our constitution was set up as Christians? Our founding Fathers were Christians, everything we have is done under our Lord Jesus Christ. Also the Pledge of Allegiance is what real Americans also honor. This country is basically Christian. As far as I am concerned love it or leave it. If you people would go to other countries you would discover that you play by their rules or else.
The same should be done in America.Political correctness has gotten out of control.
Blue Bell
Yikes, Blue Bell. America was founded by people who wanted to escape such oppression. This country is about freedom. The Constitution was written to ensure that we all have freedoms that we wouldn't find in other countries. Politically correct or not, we all have the freedom to worship the way we choose in this country, and we also have the freedom to avoid having other people's beliefs forced upon us. America is not a "play by our rules or else" country.
I don't agree that this country is "basically Christian." This country is home to people of all different kinds of religion, and even people who don't follow organized religion at all. The beauty of this country is that we can all live together peacefully, each believing what we choose.
Separation of church and state (or county, in this case) comes straight from the First Amendment to the Constitution. So perhaps people objecting to prayer being led in a county building ARE playing by the "rules" and defending our own constitution.
No one is saying that people CAN'T pray in a county building, just that it shouldn't be a structured part of the meal.
I agree, keep the government out of religion and vice versa. I think the county leadership should demonstrate this by stating that in publically funded facilities, specific prayers should not be led outloud, a moment of silence for optional personal prayers or observances is a fine way to handle this. I am a practicing Christian but I don't make others sit through my religious choice. Freedom through respect for each other.
I can't for the life of me understand why people of certain Christian denominations feel the need to pray aloud at football games and other non-religious events. Without a doubt, people who are not willing to sit through a prayer should not be asked to leave. Instead, if the center (and commissioners) feel so strongly about it, a moment of silence to give the certain Christian denominations attendees a chance to bow their head and say their prayer in complete silence would be more acceptable. The Hood River Senior Center and Mosier Senior Center do not allow prayer but do ask for the pledge of allegiance. If the Director doesn't understand that prayer is not acceptable, maybe it is time for a replacement.
I also believe in religious freedom for all,but if one person cringes when a prayer is given to Our Heavenly Father, does that mean we all have to stop praying aloud? When I was growing up the school day began with a prayer and the Pledge of Allegiance, sure didn't hurt me any! infact it gave me a love for my country that has no bounds. If prayer is banned in public places I truely fear for my country. Just hink what the Muslim people go thru, do you want that to be the rule for us? All religions are sacred to the ones who believe. When the constitution was drafted who did our Founding Fathers honor? sure wasn't Mohammed. I probably spelled that wrong but I'm sure you get my drift.
Blue Bell
Blue Bell,
I think you hit the nail on the head with your own comment that the Founding Fathers didn't consider Mohammed when they wrote the constitution, and this is where the problem lies. They never consider the possibility that this country would EVOLVE and become appealing to people from other religions and cultures. Their frame of reference from a religious stand point was extremly narrow. You cannot simply hang a "Christians Only" sign on the door and call it good.......the fact of the matter is that we are way beyond that point in this day and age. Times change and so should society. Otherwise women would still not be able to vote and we would still have segregation in public places. If people need public affirmation of their religion and beliefs, doesn't that show some level of insecurity in what they believe in? How about a moment of silence so EVERYONE can worship how they choose? What is so bad about that?
Beatledawg
Blue Bell,
The Pledge of Alligiance was a marketing ploy, part of an advertising campaign. Google Pledge of Alligiance and read about its history. Wikipedia has an interesting synopsis. When I was a kid we extended our arm out to the flag, but with the advent of the Nazi's that was changed to placing the hand over the heart. The Knights of Columbus where the ones that wanted the word "under God" added.
Can you name any other country that pledges alligiance to a flag? There is one other that I know of. But it seems silly to pledge alligiance to a flag rather than a leader, or God forbid, to the Consitution.
Okay Anon, I stand corrected! after your reminder I did remember the original pledge. as I said in my original statement I honor all religions, but I still feel we are losing our country to political correctness. And if I am not mistaken the 10 commandments is what our nation was founded on. We are a melting pot of humanity but if they felt our country was better than their own why don't they try to live by the standards they think is so great? freedom is what we all want but we are losing ours. Stop and give it some thought.
Blue Bell
Our country was founded on the Ten Commandments???? Funny, I thought it was the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution (of which the Bill of Rights is preamble). Jefferson and Franklin, by the way, were deists, and did not subscribe to a specific religion. lijqmr
Some people aren't as patriotic as others (or not at all), so I think if saying a pledge to the flag of their country puts them out of their comfort zone, they should be thankful for the freedoms they enjoy everyday because of those who fought for the flag that was raised on Iwo Jima. In fact, those who refuse to say the pledge more than likely didn't serve their country at all.
if simply saying the flag pledge makes one a patriot, it's sure easy, isnt it? how about campaigning for better medical treatment for veterans? How about not sending soldiers to die in foreign lands for the sake of the oil companies? And conscientious objectors love their country, too. even if one enjoys pledging, isnt 104 times a year a bit much?
I thought I would proceed to stir the pot up here a little......hopefully to make poeople think a little about what patriotism actually is.
Squeekywheel commented about raising the flag at Iwo Jima and how that particular image represents sacrifice and fighting for our freedom. She is right in reguards to that particular time and war......but it is mistake to blindly bow to the flag every single day and reaffirm your patriotism without ever questioning our leaders or trying to see if true patriotism needs to be redefined from time to time. This is where preservation and upholding of the constitution comes into play.......that is what we need to focus on first and foremost as a country!
I have seen many of our rights erode over the last 6 years and that bothers me more than people not standing at attention because they don't want to repeat a marketing slogan that was force fed to us when we were kids. I think true patriots care more about the Bill of Rights and the Constitution. I also think that those in power make issue of hot buttons like the pledge, prayer in public places and flag burning, so they can distract us from what they are really doing behind our backs.
Beatledawg
Beatledawg, I sure do agree with you on all your points. Saluting the flag or saying the pledge of allegiance do not within themselves make you a patriot. However, it is a show of respect for the flag and love for our country. It takes a hypocrite to salute the flag and then walk all over our Bill of Rights and Constitution, wouldn't you say?
I received an e-mail from a friend of mine recently. You may remember Red Skelton. He was a good and funny man, but passed away several years ago. He had a TV show and ended every show saying "Good Night and God Bless". In 1969, 38 years ago during Vietnam, he told this story. Go to the website, turn on your speaker and listen to him describe the Pledge of Allegiance.
http://patriotfiles.org/pledge.htm
Squeakywheel,
I loved Red Skelton......but I think he was wrong then and I think the same message is wrong now and this is why. We no longer live in the country he describes. The one he talks about growing up as a kid is the "ideal" that many people in this country are holding onto but in my opinion are fooling themselves. I think President Dwight Eisenhower had a better handle on what was true patriotism. As opposed to stiring up emotions that merely make people feel good and ignor what is going on around them......he chose to inform Americans of what was headed in the future and give them the opportunity to do something about it. Unfortunately we are too preoccupied with Brittney and Lindsey......while our rights as individuals are being trampled and and at the same time we are being robbed by those in power. Watch this clip on You Tube.....it is interesting! The Military Industrial Complex.......sounds a lot like Iraq to me! Don't we as patriots have to ask ourselves if our politicians really represent the citizens of this country or the special interests?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y06NSBBRtY
Beatledawg
i visited another state last week and discovered that 4 year olds are pledging the flag with the 'under god' phrase, then singing god bless america. whatever happened to separation of church and state. gone with the wind, or with the bush/cheney gang.
"Under God" was added to the Pledge by Eisenhower in the mid-1950's. Since that time, I don't think saying the generic "God" once in the pledge, nor singing "God" twice in the song 'God Bless America" has caused anyone to either believe or not believe in a particular God. This is quite different from a public prayer which the religious right always wants to publicly display praying to Jesus Christ and emphasizing a particular protestant belief. I believe in separation of church and state, but I don't think the pledge nor the song enter into what anyone could consider as anything else but a higher power. More of a concern for me, are the comments like yours that worries me about the next generation we are leaving our country to-
well, i am not sure about the difference between a 'higher power' or 'god' or 'God' but yes, the indoctrination is kind of scary. How can we teach our children to love all the world's peoples and nations and not just their own country? I dont suppose anybody has figured this out yet, but it bears consideration. And, of course, public prayers should not be condoned with tax monies are involved.
As a non-Christian, what am I supposed to do when I am asked to pray to their God? I don't want to be rude but I feel like I'm being dishonest and untruthful. I have chosen not to make a fuss. So I don't go anymore.
A Higher Power could be God to some and Buddha to others... To some their Higher Power is God but there are many different religions who have various"Higher Powers". Even the Hindu think of Buddha as God. So their vision of their God is different than most Protestants vision of God. We have freedom of religion in this country, so when one says the pledge, they refer to "their God" in the pledge. However, they should not be subjected to a prayer at a public building which is in disagreement with their faith. As previously stated, that doesn't mean people can't be asked to bow their heads in silent thought or prayer if they wish. This administration has continued to cross that line separating church and state. The so-called "faith-based" initiative programs are nothing but government-funded evangelist work for the religious right passed by a Republican Congress and signed by Bush. I think churches which enjoy a non-taxable status should be taken to IRS court if they cross the line between church and state and that goes for Democrats speaking at predominantly black churches as well as Republicans at the religious right churches. Churches which harbor fugitives should also pay a price.
So yes, I do believe in separation of church and state, but I think you can carry it too far. There is nothing wrong with having a lite Christmas Tree in the townsquare. There are many who don't believe in God who think Christmas celebrations are just fine.. but then every once in a while you run across some aren't happy no matter what you do...they are just sad people.
i think the senior center is in trouble, big time. the Freedom from Religion Foundation has told them they are in violation of the law. will there be a lawsuit? who knows? they also point out that insulting people is not especially good manners.
Lawsuit? How absolutely ridiculous!!! Sharon Carter should have listened to the District Attorney. Pledge of Allegiance is fine followed by a moment of silence to allow those who can't eat without a prayer to pray to themselves.
There's no reason for a stupid lawsuit.
I think that this should be decided in the court of public opinion. I doubt that the volunteers that do the praying want to hurt anyone's feelings. This county has waaay bigger problems to deal with.
"...this should be decided in the court of public opinion???" Thus far, that public opinion has been that the majority rules and that is not acceptable. Apparently you haven't noticed, but some of those right wing religious nuts don't care if they hurt anyone's feelings. They just want to impose their views on everyone else whether it is a prayer to start the football game, prayer at the senior luncheon - doesn't matter. They also want to impose their political views on everyone else. If they want to pray, they can go to their church. But, in a building paid for by government money, I think the moment of silence is more appropriate.
so it looks like the boom is being lowered by tim o'neill on the prayer. whoever did this made a great contribution to the county, the constitution, and the local political culture.
Anonymous,
I don't know whether to take your remarks as sarcasm or a matter of relief to those who don't share the same religious views as the prayers "to Jesus Christ" being offered at the Senior luncheons. I do know that there are many poems and words of encouragement or even funny senior jokes that could be shared and would be accepted by people of all faiths (or no faith at all). The place for prayers of a religious nature belong in a church, mosque or synagogue.
now it appears that a christian rightwing group will sue the co. if the spoken out-loud prayer is stopped. the co. is caught between a rock and a hard place. how could this have been prevented?
The Christian Right-wing group needs to say a prayer to win this one. But, I suggest they go to their church to say it if it has to be out loud.
How could it have been prevented? If the Christians are "real Christians", they would have been considerate of others whose faith was not the same as theirs. There are many inspirational readings that can be shared that would be acceptable to seniors of all religions. But, that isn't the Religious Rights' way of doing things. They feel they must thrust their religion upon everyone -whether through laws in our government, prayers in public or whatever. Quite frankly, the rest of the people are beginning to stand up and say 'enough is enough'.
It might be time for those of us that believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster to show up at the Senior Center and say a public prayer in acknowledgement and worship of his saucyness.
http://www.venganza.org/
This is the can of worms that is being opened here.
it seems that a volunteer from the audience led the prayer on wednesday. this is of course a violation of the Establishment clause of the Constitution. What about the freedom of those who must listen to those who are braying the lords prayer? as a bumper sticker says, 'jesus, save us from your followers' -- the co. now says they cannot stop the prayer. of course they can. they might lost some votes. but they might be supported by the fair-minded people of the county.
Jon Meacham wrote for Newsweek:
"In 1808 Jacob Henry, a Jewish-American, was elected to the state legislature of North Carolina, which refused to seat him unless he was a) a Protestant and b) conceded the divine authority of the Old and New Testaments. Here is what Henry said to them: "Governments only concern the actions and conduct of man, and not his speculative notions. Who among us feels himself so exalted above his fellows as to have a right to dictate to them any mode of belief?"
Too many people do feel exalted, which is why religious believers, who far outnumber those who do not believe, have a special obligation to be humble and gracious and respectful. John Jay, the Chief Justice and warden of Trinity Church Wall Street in New York, was a devout Anglican, but he firmly understood what America was to be about: "Real Christians," he said, "will abstain from violating the rights of others." Or better yet, real AMERICANS will abstain from violating those rights.
I agree wholeheartedly with Jon Meacham. I really hate to see lawsuits over this type of thing when there are better ways to spend the money for seniors than to send it to some lawyers office. But, it appears that the Senior Advisory Board doesn't have any respect for others of a different faith or they would have fired Sharon Carter. Therefore, they may need a lawsuit to wake them up to reality.
To be quite honest, I'm very disappointed in the people who attend the Senior lunches. If they want a prayer meeting, they should make arrangments to meet at their church and have their church prepare their meal. If they want a government subsidized meal at the Senior Center, they should be respectful of others and bow their head for a silent word with their God. Amen.
a good point. Real Christians respect the rights of others, do not expect them to leave the room during their 'christian' prayers and understand that one of the strengths of our system is that we allow different views and do not discriminate on the basis of race, color or creed. It is true this is often honored in the breach. We must fight for our diversity. Good luck to those trying to stop the christian right.
Too often, people in the minority say nothing because they are outnumbered. I'm not personally in the minority, but I am for justice and what is right. And what is right is the respect of others who have different views. I may want to put a lite cross on the hill, but I want the minority to be able to put a Star of David up there with it.
i was very offended, as a religious person, when people screamed the doxology at the senior lunch in Lyle. And also, when a man got up and sang a hymn praising jesus. this man doesnt even live in the county. it was insulting to any fair minded person of any belief.
this is what happened in hood river. the co. atty. Teunis Wyers told the senior center to allow only quiet prayer at individual tables which would disturb no one else. seniors at mosier chose to do the same thing. why is klickitat co. so backward and derelict in this? do rightwing christians run these centers?
it appears the county has complied with the law in white salmon. hopefully Lyle and Goldendale will follow. happy new year.
I don't know what you mean "the county has complied with the law in
White Salmon"..
It is the Senior Center that needs to comply and the last I heard, the Seniors were still saying a prayer, singing the Doxology and other hymns and generally conducting what I would call a "church service". I wasn't there. To be quite honest, I attend the Hood River Senior Center at times, but don't care to attend a church service type program at the Senior Center, so I haven't gone to the one in White Salmon. It is my understanding that "prayers, doxology and hymns" continue to be a part of the Lyle Senior Center program as well.
The WWII generation fought the Nazis in Europe and freed the surviving Jews who were in consecration camps. And now, this generation excludes Jews from attending the Senior Center by their actions. They should bow their head alright, but in shame - not prayer.
dear squeaky....thanks for your eloquent comment. by 'the co. has complied in w. salmon' is meant that people are allowed to pray individually and quietly at their own tables, as in Hood River, but there is no collective prayer led by a volunteer. the law allows this. The Bahai and Wiccan communities are pleased with this decision as well as you. As for Lyle, they have been told to stop the doxology and other collective prayer. The Constitution rocks!
i went today - the leader said 'praise the lord' and 'god bless you' to the group. is this a church or what?
it is especially reprehensible to enlist the visiting musicians in the prayer cause. they know nothing about the issue, really, but dont want to appear unreligious. thoroughly disgusting.
Squeaky,
Know you didn't intend this error, but those were 'concentration', not 'consecration', camps during WWII - think you'll appreciate that there's a HUGE difference...
from your 12/26 post: "...who were in consecration camps."
Oops! I guess I should have concentrated on the word and it's usage. Thanks!!!
thomas sayer's letter to the editor is pretty funny considering that he has never darkened the door of the senior center!!
It matters little whether Thomas Sayer does or doesn't go to the Senior Center but information in his letter is incorrect. First of all, "Congress shall not pass any laws pertaining to the establishing of religion" was not just so that there could be "more than one branch of christianity", it was so that any and all religions would be separate from the government. It is true that our government does open for the day with a prayer but those prayers are led one day by Jewish Rabbi, another day by a Protestant Minister, another by a Catholic priest and so on- the religion changes every day. And furthermore, I would be surprised if any of the Protestant ministers did pray "in the name of Jesus Christ". Instead, most of the time the prayers are indeed a reading that is mutual to everyone of all religions.
As I have said on this post before, real Christians would be respective of other people's rights to pray to their own God. And, that can be done quietly with the head bowed but for some reason the Religious Right folks have to have impose their views on everyone else so they think it needs to be done over the loudspeaker at the football game or over the microphone at the Senior Center. I would like to go to the Senior Center and play pinochle, but there seems to be a clique estabished that doesn't really welcome newcomers to their group.
it is too bad that the county has allowed the religious right to take over the senior centers. we hope the threat of lawsuit will change this.
am i the only one who finds it offensive that the Enterprise prints personal attacks -- such as those on Mayor Holen, or David Duncombe or others? is it a gossip sheet or a serious journalistic enterprise?
Well at least the Enterprise gives equal time to personal attacks. "Mayor" Holen insulted everyone who blogs on this site and that was printed!
You would think that the Enterprise and Hood River News being owned by the same company would have the same policy. That isn't the case. Once when I wrote a letter to the Hood River Editor that included my sister's name, with her permission, I was told by the Editor that it wasn't acceptable to use a full personal name. Go figure.
ironic that roger holen has posted a comment, actually a question, on this blog...see first item.
It doesn't matter who posts to this website. This is open an open forum for the people of White Salmon. Of course, if an individual made a big deal about people not identifying themselves and then wrote a blog anonymously, I would think that as a little hypocritical, but that's the way it is. But, this forum is open for all.
Ok, I was ready to just let this go..even when I passed the park in Lyle with the nativity scene (owned by school district), I rolled my eyes and thought, "they just don't get it."
But then I read the editorial in WS Enterprise and Goldendale papers (1/10) by Joy Collins, I became very concerned all over again.
Tim O'Neil, our county elected attorney came to a senior meal service in Lyle and suggested they opt for a silent prayer at the publically funded meals. In response, persons prayed loud and sang a hymn (very loud). How disrespectful!
Ms. Collins charaterizes Lyle as a small, neighborly, friendly, helpful town that does not want outside influence in this matter. She goes on to suggest that when hungry seniors come to the Lyle Lions Club (this building was in part paid for by Klickitat Co. EDA money) for meals funded by federal dollars (passed through the county) that they can be silent (ie. excersise their right not to pray/sing) when the Lord's Prayer is led or the Doxology sang before the meal. She goes on to suggest they could wait outside the building (in the snow??) till after the opening prayer/hymn. (Will someone come out and tell them the prayer is over, how will it feel when they walk in?). She then goes on to say "Another option is to absent yourself from lunch on Tues. at the Lyle Lions Community Center".... Wow, that does not sound very friendly, infact it is out right defiant and threatening. If you are a hungry senior who does not think, look, pray, behave like Joy, don't come to the buildling your tax dollars helped build or eat the food your tax dollars help pay for...
So, though I loathe another battle around here, I think this is one we need to rally for because of the righteous and grandious attitude of a small group of people that believe they are in control and can can just be bullies.
Senior meals in many areas simply have a moment of quiet for everyone before the meal is served, how respectful! Public services in our county need to be inclusive and comfortably inviting to all persons. Having to sit through a prayer and hymn that is specific to any religous faith, has no place in resources for citizens funded through taxes. Contact the below organizations to help get Klickitat Co.straightend out.
Americans United for Seperation of Church and State-- http://www.au.org
Anti-Defamtion Leaugue
http:adl.org
Interfaith Alliance
http://www.interfaithalliance.org
Here we go... too bad, but clearly it needs to be done while we still can.
thank you, anonymous, for your posting. Ms. Collins subscribes to the oldfashioned idea of 'love it or leave it' - her dear little Utopian community of Lyle is ethnocentic, xenophobic and can be downright nasty. Why cant the Christians read the Constitution and the 'establishment clause' and see that religious views, as well as non-religious views, are protected, and this is a great feature of our country. I believe the constitution is worth fighting for. And I believe that shouting the Doxology and braying the lords prayer like a bunch of demented jackasses is offensive to all fairminded people.
I recently found an article in the USA Today quite interesting:
"A new survey of US adults who don't go to church, even on holidays, finds 72% say "God, a higher or supreme being, actually exists". But, just as many (72%) also say the church is "full of hypocrites."
Indeed, 44% agree with the statement "Christians get on my nerves."
Just 52% agree on the essential Christian belief that "Jesus died and came back to life."
And, 61% say the God of the Bible is "no different from the gods or spirtual beings depicted by world religions such as Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc" although Buddhist philosophy has no god and Hindus worship many.
If you went back 100 years in North America there would have been a consensus that God is the God in the Bible. We can't assume this any longer.
Of the 72% who don't go to church, 79% say "Christianity today is more about organized religion than loving God and loving people."
I say that last sentence says it all. If the people in Lyle were real Christians, they would be respective of others rights to attend the Senior meals and enjoy friendship among their neighbors free of a religious ceremony.
suggest you contact the county commissioners on this prayer issue. email addresses are: daves@co.klickitat.wa.us dons@co.klickitat.wa.us and rayt@co.klickitat.wa.us - sharon carter, director of senior services is sharonc@co.klickitat.wa.us. or send an e mail to the white salmon enterprise.....
Anonymous... I think the county commissioners have discussed this and were unwilling to make a strong statement so Tim O'Neil was sent. Unfortunately when leadership is willing to step in and upset the old timers apple cart, it this just reinforces the "we can do what we want" attitude. I don't know what the new commissioner taking Don Struck's place thinks of the issue. Otherwise, I have little hope that the current electd officials will risk further discussing or considering ways to resolve this, thus the need for outside intervention that Ms. Collins refered to.
you are right. i think you meant to say 'unwilling' to confront the issue, so sent tim. as of today, the violations have not stopped. and yes, outside intervention is necessary. the commissioners, as well as Tim, are thinking about the next election. and i doubt if the new commissioner will go against the majority opinion.
I believe the constitution is worth fighting for And I believe that shouting the Doxology and braying the lords.
sanjay, your posting isnt complete.....would please finish it, as i'd like to read it. thanks.
Apparently Tim O'Neill had to argue hard with the commissioners to end the communal prayer. i do't go often, but sometimes i find that the so called individual prayers at tables are as loud as ever. Why can't folks honor beliefs other than their own?
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